Harry P v. Warrior Cats

While people all over America are bickering over White Sox v. whomever it is the White Sox are playing before game 4 (?) of the World Series, my girls were having a dinner-time deathmatch over which fantasy series is better, Harry Potter or the Warriors.  Juniorina has turned on the Harry Potter franchise like a Hippogriff on a snot-nosed Slytherin, and become a rabid advocate for another young adult fantasy series, The Warriors.

The Warriors is written by two women who go under the name Erin Hunter, and is about the adventures of several cat clans who hold their own territories, sometimes warring and sometimes cooperating, sometimes hooking up across forbidden lines.  I've read the first two in the series and they're quite compelling and charming. Juniorina, though, has become a rabid advocate for the series.  Tonight's dinner didn't quite come to fisticuffs, but tater tots and harsh words were flung across the table, punctuated by my insertions ("It's about what you like,"  "Stop!"  "Neither of you is right!"  "I don't care if the tot was on the floor. You threw it, you eat it!" and finally, "I'm blogging this, you know.")

Curiously, it started out when Ette asked Ina what her favorite HP book was. 

Ette:  What's your favorite Harry Potter book?
Ina:    Probably the first one. What's yours?
Ette:  Book 5. 
Ina:   Your mean the one with all the kissing and anger?
Ette:  Yeah, but there's even more smooching in book 6. At least it's not all about violence like with the cats fighting all the time.
Ina:   Nuh uh. They don't fight all the time.

It escalated rapidly after this.

Ina:   At least in the Warriors the cats rely on their strengths and don't rely on magic      wands.
Ette:  Magic is just a manifestation of inner strength.
Ina:   Well, the cats hunt for their own food and don't get served by house elves.
Ette:  In Harry Potter they get to live in a castle and don't have to sleep outside in the rain and leaves.
(tater tot flung, followed by a napking-swatting)
Ette:  The Warriors books don't have very many pages.
Ina:   At least I don't have to wait three years between books. (doh!)

I'll take a dinnertime argument about books over baseball anytime.

*******************************

3/31/08 NOTE TO WARRIOR CATS ABOUT COMMENTS!: Typepad has changed the way it displays comments which, unfortunately makes it really hard to get to most recent discussion. I'm trying to get some help figuring out how to make easier again. For now, go to this link: http://rochellejustrochelle.typepad.com/copilot/2005/10/harry_p_v_warri/comments/page/112/#comments That will take you to most recent page of comments. I will try to keep the link updated so you don't have to click so many times. Sorry! I'd fix it if I could.

Comments

[Hazeleyes]

Hey thanks to the people who posted for me already! There are still positions open if you want your cat in it.

Dreamstar I found that info from reading Outcast and the Warriors field guide.

[Rubyfur]

One of my friend's website had a cat named Creamsky, she was my apprentice!
And well, if there are any places for a medicine cat, can you put Dewfeather? Dewfeather - silver-gray tabby she-cat with blue eyes

[Dreamstar]

Hazeleyes!!! Could you please! Tell me where you got the info about the Tribe!!! If you got it from a web site could you tell me it!!
-Dreamstar***

[Dreamstar]

Ow and trust me! i know Whatsup and she didn't mean anything she posted!! She actualy likes the Warriors.... I'm gessing that she wanted to see what you would say about her comment?

[Dreamstar]

Hazeleyes!!! I would love to be a part of your sequel!! I am a cream white she-cat with jet black specks all over my fur and dark green eyes! Feel free to use these names for my warrior...
Dreamfeather
Wildspots
Dottedfire
Sageeyes
Emeraldheart
Creamsky

[Hazeleyes]

Hey all I'm looking foe cats who want to be in the new clan, Moorclan in my sequel.Please leave a description of your cat and say if you want to be in it. PLLEEAASSEE!!??!

[Hazeleyes]

phooey. Well guys, you know my story "Eyes of fire is almost done. But my sequel called "Sunlit water" Will be out soon!YAY!

[Rubyfur]

It wasn't the actual one. Rochelle said it was her editor or something. I can't remember.

[Hazeleyes]

Well he said they were nothing.

HEY GUESS WHAT! I WAS READING OLD POSTS AND THE ACCUAL KATE CARY WAS ON HERE.

[Mossfire]

Like what?!

[Hazeleyes]

hmph. All right. But he did say bad stuff.

[Rubyfur]

Harry Potter and Warriors are equal...but I do like Warriors more.

Nice story, Pebblestar! And thanks for the comment Dreamstar!

[Mossfire]

Chill Hazeleyes. He was just voicing his opinion. You don't need to get so mad. He didn't even say anything bad about Warriors.

[Hazeleyes]

for the prople who accually CARE about this site, and who have read outcast, I figured out that there were three tribes, and rock was a healer, and that they did use the moonpool to talk to their ancestors!

[Hazeleyes]

Hey you *#$%! Get off this site! it's not for people to say bad things about books other people like!!! Get off! no one wants you here you *$##!

[whatsup]

Harry potter is the best and the warrior cats are nothing compared to Harry potter... Harry Potter rocks!!!!!!

[Dreamstar]

Rubyfur! I would give your story a 9.99% out of 10 the other 1% is .... well IDK! It was great! And I liked yours Pebblestar! I know my story was short i was trying to think of it out in 10 mintutes...

[Pebblestar]

This is my new series.

Forming the Clans

Prologue:
Starlight shone on the puffy clouds, a glow shining from the edges of the clouds. Transparent cats padded along the clouds, the moonlight outlined their starry fur. Three cats met at a point to discuss a serious manner. One cat had a flowery, sweet scent about her tortoiseshell fur; another was a green eyed light furred tom with an askew jaw; the third was another darker natured tom with equally black fur. The air teemed with stillness.
The light furred tom spoke, “What do you sense in the distance, Spottedleaf?”
Spottedleaf, the tortoiseshell she-cat answered, “I sense a group of cats, similar to our recent terror, BloodClan. But instead, they live merely to terrorize, not seize territory for comfort, they just simply terrorize anyone in a better position than they, such as kittypets, or even Clan members.”
The dark tom asked, “And why do you plan to help kittypets, ThunderClan does well with rogues, loners, and even have a decent kittypet leader, but what you’re saying is creating an entire Clan from kittypets.”
Spottedleaf explained half-defensively, “If cats with a will to abide by the warrior code are taught to do so, they can be leaders.”
The light furred tom agreed, “That is true, the only disadvantage to having kittypets in Clans is supposed weakness, and therefore, constant attack, which can break down the most gifted warrior. However, in a Clan where everyone is a kittypet or loner, it doesn’t matter, and it is a noble deed to protect any cat, enemy, ally, or bystander.”
“I suppose,” the dark tom admitted coldly.
Spottedleaf turned away from the two wise toms and meowed, “In that case, I will be heading for the Twolegplace now, to warn and guide these cats.” she left, and faded into the starry distance.

In a dream, a brown tabby tom woke up in a moor. He jumped down the steep cliffs, chasing a mouse, not for prey, but for play. The mouse scurried through the valleys in the moor leading the young tom to a flat area. The tom crouched as the mouse stopped to nibble at a piece of soft green grass. The cat tapped the mouse lightly to make it run and continue the game. Then, a tortoiseshell paw swiped out and grabbed the mouse, it was Spottedleaf.
“Hey, who are you?” the tom demanded, startled.
Spottedleaf replied calmly with hints of growling, “Spottedleaf, a Clan cat not too far from this area, and I’ve come to save you from a horrible death.”
The tom blinked, “Huh?”
“The Clans are made of cats that hunt and fight together, and occasionally have conflicts with other Clans. They live by a warrior code, assuring those that obey it stay warriors.”
“Well, I’m Earth, and I still need to know what I can do to defend myself and my siblings.” Earth demanded bravely.
Spottedleaf nodded curtly, “According to what those of my kind can see, you are destined to lead along with your sisters, each of you leading your own Clan, and your ideals and skills will be passed down in your Clans, even after you no longer walk the earth, and live in the stars.”
“I apologize, but you lost me again, live in the stars?” Earth interrupted.
Spottedleaf sighed quietly, “All cats that live by the warrior code live forever in an afterlife of cats we call StarClan that live in the stars.”
Earth’s eyes rose, “I see. You want me to create the Clans from house cats and strays.”
“Yes, but, just so you know, Clan cats call house cats kittypets, and stray cats loners.” Spottedleaf informed.
Earth raised his ears with excitement, Sounds interesting, he thought, “I wouldn’t have to live with housefolk would I?”
Spottedleaf shook her head, “No, doing that would be breaking the warrior code,” Spottedleaf meowed, “and, it would be extremely difficult to lead confined to your own house.”
“Then where do we go?”
Spottedleaf realized this cat had known nothing of the warrior code and had to be patient, no matter how many questions he asked, lives where at stake, “Every Clan lives outside, and we are speaking in the exact place you will travel to, and live. The disadvantage to living outside is the weather, but, not all days are rainy or cloudy, and it is free, each Clan lives in a space the size of twenty houses.”
“Can you-,”
Spottedleaf interrupted, “I forgot, every Clan cat has a name, based on their rank and attributes. Leader names end in –star, warrior names vary from –fur, to –feather, to –pool. Apprentice names end in –paw, and kit names end in –kit. Now, you where saying?”
Earth changed his question, “Since I am excepted to be a Clan leader, can my name be Earthstar, and my Clan be EarthClan?”
Spottedleaf flicked her ear, “You are the leader, everything is your decision now, I will show you the way to come here by going back to your house. Don’t forget the way, and remember to gather few cats at first, and then come back for more cats until you have too many cats. At that point, split into the three clans.”

[Rubyfur]

No, actually, I also kinda like The Outsider better. Probably because it sounds much more realistic. And maybe because I wrote The New Cat last year, and my mind actually works better this year lol.

[Mossfire]

Hey guys. Good prologue Dreamstar. Kinda short, but still good.
Loved it Rubystar! I think I like the second one more, but that may be because i'm behind the story line. I still like this one alot though.

[Hazeleyes]

Sorry. Hey I can't wait to find out if ghostpaw will betray them!

[Rubyfur]

If no one reviews my story, then I'm not going to post anymore.

[Hazeleyes]

Good prolouge Dreamstar!

[Dreamstar]

Yea Yea Yea i am going to post the Prologue to the stoy i'm typing!
PROLOGUE
" Hello... Hello...who's out there?"
" I am Thunder." explained a heavy voice from the didtance.
" What do you want from me?" I peared steadedly in to the darkness.
Just then I saw flashes of vishions wave across the sky as they passed swiftly by...
cats were fighting, as if in a battle... growling, claws, tearing of fur and five vishions that appeared louder and more clearer than the rest. The first vishion was of a river, the second was a shadow, the third was a strong wind, the fifth was a sky full of thunder, and the last stayed much longer than the rest, there was a sky of stars as far as any cat could see.
" What are these vishions of?"
" They are of the past and the future, let me show you something." the voice was louder than before and drawing nearer.
A handsome orange tom worn with age steped out of the darkness and tward the moonlight. His wise amber eyes looked strong and deturmended though they pearsed through my fur. I gasped when I saw him.
" Are you thunder?"
" Yes, and you are the destiny." he answered.
I stared at him with confusion.
What does he mean, I am destiny?
" Why do you vist me?"
But, before he could answer he vanished, only the pale moonlight was still with me, and a small sound of his voice -
" You are destiny, follow the wild...."

CONTINUED...

[Hazeleyes]

Dreamstar, you are completely forgiven.

I'll agree that I think that parts of "Outcast" was rather uimpressive. Though it was good when we found out why Stormfur and Brook left the Tribe. But it all seemed too short!I wanted more!!

I think I'll write some more of my story later
=<)

[Rubyfur]

Chapter 2
Thornmask crept along the forest floor, stalking a mouse. He hissed in frustration when he accidentally stepped on a twig and alerted the unsuspecting mouse. He let it go. There was no point chasing after a mouse when there were lots more in the forest.

He stepped into an unknown clearing. In the middle of the clearing, a familiar dark brown tabby she-cat sat. Rushtail! A wave of joy swept through him. Rushtail had been the medicine cat before Icemask, and had treated him when he was an apprentice with greencough. Under her gentle care, Thornmask, then Thornpaw, recovered soon and was able to continue his training. Rushtail had died in battle against rogues three seasons ago.

“Come closer, Thornmask,” she meowed. “I have a message for you.”

“I’m listening,” Thornmask meowed as he padded forward until he was standing before the medicine cat.

“A new cat, one that will bring doom to all, a traitor in place of another not real, only one will save the Clans,” Rushtail meowed. “Be firm in the days to come, or you will not survive.”

“Wait!” Thornmask yowled as Rushtail started to fade. “I don’t understand!”

Something prodded Thornmask and he awoke with a start. “Are you alright?” Hollyheart asked.

Thornmask sat up and began to wash himself. “Er…yes, it was just a dream,” he meowed awkwardly.

Hollyheart didn’t move. “Want to go hunting together later?” she asked.

“Sure. I’ll meet you beside the camp entrance at sunhigh,” he meowed before padding out of the den.

It has been three days since the badgers’ attack and Skywhisker was back to warrior duties. Hawkclaw was still recovering from his injuries.

Thornmask headed for the fresh-kill pile and picked a plump mouse. He settled down to eat it. Hollyheart sat down beside him with a thrush. Breezefoot stared at them for a short while before turning back to his prey.

Rubystar appeared from her den and leapt onto the Mossrock.

“Let all cats old enough to catch their own prey gather beneath the Mossrock for a Clan meeting!” she yowled.

Turning to Ghost, she meowed, “Ghost, you have since recovered from your injuries. Would you like to stay in the Clan?”

Rubystar’s question set many cats murmuring to each other. Thornmask heard Breezefoot meow, “Is Rubystar mad?” A silent glare from Thornmask silenced him.

Ghost stood up and padded forward until he was at the base of the Mossrock. “I will be very pleased to stay with the Clan,” he meowed.

Rubystar glanced at Thornmask from the Mossrock. He nodded.

“Very well. From this day forward, until he has earned his warrior name, this apprentice will be called Ghostpaw. I will be mentor to Ghostpaw,” Rubystar meowed.

The last announcement caused an uproar.

“What!”

“Is Rubystar crazy?”

“She shouldn’t mentor him!”

“Silence!” Rubystar yowled.

The clearing fell silent.

“I will mentor Ghostpaw. That is final,” Rubystar meowed and leapt down from the Mossrock.

Thornmask gulped down the rest of his fresh-kill and padded forward to Ghostpaw.

“Remember to meet me at sunhigh,” Hollyheart whispered.

* * * * * * *

Thornmask sat waiting for Hollyheart at the camp entrnace. She was about to meow "Let's go" when Rubystar came up to them.

“I’m going to the Starpool with Ghostpaw,” Rubystar meowed to Thornmask. “Do you want to come?”

“Yes!” he jumped at the offer, ignoring the hurt look on Hollyheart’s face. “Now?”

“Yes, now. Ghostpaw?” she called.

Ghostpaw streaked across the clearing from the fresh-kill pile, almost colliding into Hollyheart.

“Watch it,” she meowed crossly and went out into the forest by herself.

Icemask came up with travelling herbs. Thornmask dabbed at the packet, dividing them into two for Ghostpaw and himself. Cats sharing tongues with StarClan are not allowed to eat before night, and Thornmask felt a stab of pity for the leader.

Thornmask swallowed the bitter-tasting herbs quickly, and swiped his tongue around his mouth to get rid of the bitter taste. “Let’s go,” Rubystar meowed and padded into the thorn tunnel.

The three cats headed for RiverClan territory south of their own and reached the river on their side of the border. They began to pad upstream. The river wound into RiverClan territory. “What if a RiverClan patrol sees us?” Ghostpaw asked.

“StarClan grants all cats safe passage to the Starpool,” Thornmask explained.

Rubystar stopped suddenly. “RiverClan!” she hissed.

A cat that looked like he was covered all over in dust burst through the undergrowth and leapt for Rubystar. She dodged him nimbly and he landed clumsily, surprised.

Two cats, a black tom and a silver-blue she-cat appeared.

“Rubystar,” the silver-blue she-cat purred. “You’re going to the Starpool?”

Rubystar nodded. The black tom nudged the dusty-looking tom to his feet.

“Coalpelt, find out what is the reason for their presence in the territory first before you attack,” he meowed. Turning to his sister, Rubystar, he meowed, “I am sorry, Rubystar. He was only made a warrior yesterday.”

“It’s okay, Deathshadow,” Rubystar meowed.

“We won’t delay you on your way,” the silver-blue she-cat meowed, stepping back. Rubystar dipped her head courteously and padded forward, never stopping to look back.

Thornmask hurried to catch up with her. Ghostpaw trailed behind, looking around curiously.

“Rubystar, I had this dream,” Thornmask started. “Rushtail came to me.”

“What did she say?” Rubystar meowed, pausing for a moment.

“She…she told me about a prophecy.”

Rubystar turned to look at him. “What was it?”

Thornmask looked back at Ghostpaw before speaking. “A new cat, one that will bring doom to all, a traitor in place of another not real, only one will save the Clans.”

“And who do you think will be the cat that will bring doom to all?”

“Ghostpaw.”
Chapter 3
“Ghostpaw was a loner,” Rubystar reasoned.

“He is a new cat in ForestClan.”

“He will be a loyal warrior to ForestClan.” Rubystar meowed coldly.

Thornmask dipped his head, and Rubystar caught a sign of sadness on his face.

“I believe you about the prophecy,” Rubystar’s voice softened. “But we don’t know about the cat that will bring doom to us, or the cat that will save us.”

“I understand,” Thornmask meowed.

“Let’s go.”

The three cats padded on in silence, until at last, they reached the cave carved into the hillside where the Starpool lay.

Rubystar flicked her tail for Ghostpaw and Thornmask to enter the cavern and wait for her there. She padded into the tunnel leading towards the Starpool.

The tunnel seemed never-ending. The walls brushed against her pelt, and Rubystar felt the tunnel as scary as it was when she first entered it, as an apprentice.

Rubystar emerged from the tunnel to a shining pool of water. The stars of Silverpelt glittered in the reflection of the Starpool. Rubystar lay down and lapped up a few drops of the sacred water, and closed her eyes.

Wind ruffled her fur. Rubystar opened her eyes and looked around. She was on the island where the four Clans held their gathering. Rushtail, the dark brown tabby she-cat that spoke to Thornmask in his dream, rose to her feet among the ranks of the starry warriors.

“Rushtail, is what Thornmask said true?” Rubystar asked.

“Look into the pool of the stream that cuts through the island,” Rushtail purred.

Rubystar padded to the pool. A pale gray tom – she couldn’t be sure – was ordering rogues to attack a Clan. She recognised that it was ForestClan camp.

She turned to Rushtail. “It’s Ghostpaw, isn’t it?”

“StarClan do not see the future clearly. We can only tell that a new cat will destroy the four Clans of the forest.”

Rubystar dipped her head. The StarClan warriors faded, and she found herself awake by the Starpool.

She stretched her stiff limbs before padding through the tunnel back to the cavern where Thornmask and Ghostpaw were waiting.

“What did StarClan say?” Ghostpaw asked, having learnt about StarClan from Thornmask in the cavern.

“Cats who have shared dreams with StarClan are forbidden to speak of their experience,” Thornmask meowed disapprovingly. “I told you just now.”

Ghostpaw dipped his head. The two of them obviously did not get along well.

“We’ll hunt on our way back,” Rubystar meowed absently. She sat down by the stream and lapped up a few drops of water to quench her thirst. Thornmask disappeared into the bushes, followed by Ghostpaw.

Suddenly, a black cat leapt from the tree above Rubystar and landed on her back. Rubystar gave a yowl of shock and struggled to get the cat off her back. Fighting the urge not to unsheathe her claws, she rolled onto her back, squashing the black cat and held her claws at its throat.

“Deathshadow!” she gasped when she realized who the attacker was.

“Yes, it’s me. You’re still as unalert as you were, but swift and strong,” he meowed, unable to hide the gleam in his blue eyes.

Rubystar released her hold on him and turned away to face the stream. Deathshadow got to his paws and shook the leaves from his pelt.

“Snowstar died after we got back to camp,” Deathshadow meowed quietly. “She died of greencough.”

Rubystar remained staring at the stream.

“Is something wrong?”

Rubystar sighed. “StarClan spoke with me. I was thinking of what they said.” She turned around. “So you are to be leader of RiverClan now?”

Deathshadow sat up proudly. “Yes,” he meowed. “But Snowstar was a good leader, the whole of RiverClan grieves for her.”

“So will ForestClan.”

“I have to be going now, to the Starpool.”

Rubystar dipped her head, but before Deathshadow could leave, Thornmask and Ghostpaw burst out of the bushes, panting heavily. Ghostpaw dropped two mice and a vole and sank to his paws.

“We heard you yowling, Rubystar. What happened?” Thornmask meowed.

“Deathshadow surprised me,” she meowed. “It was just a prank.”

Deathshadow dipped his head. “I will take my leave,” he mewed and padded towards the Starpool.

Thornmask looked on confusedly. “Snowstar…lost her last life?”

Rubystar nodded. “She died of greencough just after we met Deathshadow and the patrol on the way to the Starpool.”

Thornmask dipped his head in grief. “She never went to the gathering.”

“Why was that so?” Ghostpaw asked.

“She lost a life in the flood, and rested in camp on the first gathering since she was made leader. She lost a second life in the next flood just two days after the gathering, and many more in other floods and Twoleg traps around the territory before they were removed,” Rubystar meowed.

“What is the gathering anyway?” he mewed as he began to tear at one of the mouse, stopping when Thornmask glared at him.

“The water that runs down from the Starpool forms a lake at the end of RiverClan and ForestClan’s territory. In the middle of the lake, there is an island. That is where all the gatherings are held. At the end of the clearing on the island is a large oak tree, taller than any other tree on the island. Clan leaders stand and speak from the tree during a gathering. Every month, at the full moon, cats from all four Clans gather there in peace for one night to share the news of the forest,” Rubystar meowed, bringing the vole in front of her with her tail. She ate, then rested for some time.

As it neared sun-high, Rubystar started to pad back to their territory, flicking for Thornmask and Ghostpaw to follow. No more had they taken a few steps did someone call, “Rubystar!”

The ForestClan leader turned around. “Deathshadow – no, Deathstar?”

The new RiverClan leader had emerged from the cavern. His steps faltered a little as he padded uncertainly towards them. “I never thought the ceremony to be like that,” he rasped.

“What ceremony?” Ghostpaw twitched his ears.

“Will you keep silent? You are always asking about this and that!” Thornmask hissed.

Rubystar shook her head. “He was a loner, Thornmask. Be patient with him.” Turning to Ghostpaw, she meowed, “When a leader of a Clan loses his or her last life, the deputy is required to take over the position. He or she travels to the Starpool – where StarClan grants the deputy nine lives, and his or her new name, which is necessary to become a leader. What they have been through in the ceremony is not for others to hear of.”

Ghostpaw narrowed his eyes. This information would be useful to him, but not in the way Rubystar would think.

[Rubyfur]

I read The Sight online.
I'll post the next chapter later.

[Dreamstar]

I agree, Outcast just didn't feel as good as the other Warrior books,... but i did like the end a lot!
I can't wait till Hollypaw, and Lionpaw become warriors!!!

[Dreamstar]

Hey! I'm back! Hazeleyes! I have been so so bezzy ( and yes i know i spelled buzzy wrong)
I am really really really really sorry!!!!! I didn't realize that you made the Warrior name Winterfrost... I just got confused, because Mossfire posted right above yours...sorry!
And I would like to read " The New Cat"
I missed my fellow Warriors,
- Dreamstar
P.S. Does anyone know any new books coming out or some warrior news??

[Mossfire]

I finished Outcast! It was pretty good, but it still doesn't compare to the original books, or HP.

[Hazeleyes]

at least I said sorry when i made a mistake. Dreamstar never did! Come to think of it, i haven't seen dreamstar post in a couple of days.

[Hazeleyes]

really sorry.I just didn't read that post.sorry sorry SORRY!

[Rubyfur]

No one likes to be ignored...

[Hazeleyes]

Sorry!!!!!!!!!!!!! Hey, one of the kids in my class has started reading the warriors books. his name is riley. I told him if he liked them that he should join this site. So it possibly would be him if a new cat joins in the next few days.

[Rubyfur]

I said to vote...

[Hazeleyes]

well,outcast was good but it, to me was a little boring in the begining.

[Mossfire]

Ummmmmm......I guess lets hear some of The New Cat. I think we've only seen the prologue or chapter one of it.

[Hazeleyes]

Yeha, I did come up with it!!!=(

[Rubyfur]

Do you guys want to read The New Cat or The Outsider next?
A vote, a vote, a vote!!!

[Mossfire]

Umm, thanks Dreamstar, but I didn't come up with Winterfrost. I think Hazeleyes did.
And I don't know if I will or not. I'll have to think about it.
No, Rippedpelt isn't new. He was one of the original apprentices with Mossfire and Watereyes and Grayheart and all them.